Effective preaching stands as a cornerstone of Christian ministry, a vital means through which spiritual nourishment and guidance are delivered to congregations worldwide. In a compelling episode of Pastors Talk, a podcast by 9Marks, Pastor John Piper, alongside Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman, delves into the multifaceted world of sermon delivery, offering invaluable insights gleaned from years of dedicated service and theological reflection. This discussion provides a rich tapestry of advice, ranging from the foundational elements of sermon preparation to navigating the complexities of doctrinal preaching and receiving feedback. For those seeking to hone their craft in communicating God’s word, the wisdom shared by Pastor John Piper in this conversation is both profound and practically applicable.
The dialogue begins with a personal anecdote from Pastor John Piper, recounting his first sermon experience during seminary. This humble beginning serves as a relatable entry point, emphasizing that even seasoned preachers like Pastor John Piper started their journey with formative experiences and lessons learned. The conversation then progresses to explore fundamental questions about sermon construction, such as defining the main idea of a sermon and determining the appropriate length and scope of scripture to cover. These are not merely academic exercises but practical considerations that every preacher faces weekly as they prepare to minister to their flock. The exchange between Pastor John Piper, Mark Dever, and Jonathan Leeman reveals a nuanced understanding of these elements, highlighting that effective preaching is not a monolithic approach but rather a thoughtful adaptation to the text and the needs of the congregation.
A significant portion of the discussion is dedicated to the crucial balance between doctrinal depth and practical application in sermons. Pastor John Piper, known for his robust theological framework, expresses a concern about the potential for doctrinal shallowness in contemporary preaching. He advocates for sermons that not only expound on scripture but also construct a coherent and compelling worldview rooted in biblical truth. This emphasis on doctrinal preaching is juxtaposed with the prevalent concept of “gospel-centered” preaching, prompting a thoughtful examination of how to ensure the gospel remains central without diminishing the breadth and depth of biblical teaching. The conversation challenges preachers to consider whether their sermons are merely conveying interesting observations about the text or truly equipping their congregations with a robust theological understanding of God, sin, and life.
Further enriching the discussion is the exploration of practical aspects of sermon delivery, including the use of outlines, hand gestures, and overall preaching style. While acknowledging the importance of structure for clarity, Pastor John Piper reveals his approach of using a manuscript for detailed preparation rather than a rigid outline in the pulpit. This insight offers a glimpse into the personal methodologies of experienced preachers and underscores that authenticity and genuine communication are paramount. Moreover, the conversation delves into the often-sensitive topic of feedback, both giving and receiving, highlighting the necessity of humility and a teachable spirit for continuous growth in ministry. The candid exchange between Pastor John Piper and Mark Dever, where they offer both encouragement and constructive criticism to each other, serves as a powerful model for pastors seeking to cultivate a culture of mutual improvement within their ministry contexts.
Ultimately, the wisdom imparted by Pastor John Piper in this Pastors Talk episode is a treasure trove for anyone committed to the craft of preaching. His advice to young pastors—to pray deeply, study the Bible extensively, and love their people fervently—encapsulates the essence of effective ministry. These are not merely steps in sermon preparation but principles for a life poured out in service to God and His church. By engaging with the rich insights shared in this discussion, preachers can be inspired to deepen their theological understanding, refine their communication skills, and, above all, faithfully proclaim the transformative truth of God’s word to a world in desperate need of hearing it. This conversation with Pastor John Piper is not just about sermons; it’s about shaping a ministry that is both biblically grounded and profoundly impactful.
John Piper’s Early Preaching and the First Sermon
Reflecting on his early days, Pastor John Piper recounts his first sermon given during seminary chapel, a moment that stands out vividly in his memory. This wasn’t just any sermon; it was a unique illustration drawn from an unexpected source – the song “Big Bad John.” For those unfamiliar, “Big Bad John” is a country ballad from the late 1960s, a narrative song almost akin to a spoken-word piece before the era of rap. Pastor John Piper ingeniously used this song as an extended illustration. The song tells the story of Big Bad John, a miner who heroically saves his fellow miners during a cave-in by holding up a rafter until everyone escapes, ultimately sacrificing his own life.
The memorable aspect of this sermon was how Pastor John Piper drew a parallel between Big Bad John’s selfless act and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. As he explains, “Big Bad John held up the rafter until everybody was out and then he died…That’s like Jesus.” This analogy, though unconventional, effectively conveyed the theme of sacrificial love and redemption to his seminary audience. It’s a testament to Pastor John Piper’s early creativity and ability to connect biblical truths with relatable, albeit surprising, cultural references.
When asked about his grades in preaching class, Pastor John Piper humorously admits to caring about grades in seminary, acknowledging a past “vanity.” He recalls receiving a C in preaching from a professor named James Dane, not because of his preaching delivery, but due to disagreements on textual interpretation. This anecdote highlights a crucial aspect of learning and growth for any preacher: the importance of sound biblical exegesis. Even with creative illustrations and engaging delivery, a sermon’s foundation must be rooted in a correct understanding of scripture. Pastor John Piper’s experience underscores that feedback, even in the form of a less-than-desirable grade, can be a valuable tool for refinement and a deeper commitment to biblical accuracy in preaching.
The Essential Main Idea of a Sermon According to Pastor John Piper
A fundamental question for any preacher is whether a sermon should have a main idea, and if so, what that idea should be. Pastor John Piper unequivocally affirms the need for a central point in a sermon, stating, “Yes, at least one.” However, his definition of this main idea is nuanced and theologically rich. According to Pastor John Piper, the main idea of a sermon “should be something true in the text that’s important for these people.” This definition immediately broadens the scope beyond simply identifying the grammatical main point of a passage.
Pastor John Piper clarifies that the main idea of a sermon “does not have to be the main point of the text.” This distinction is crucial. He elaborates on the “main point of a text” as “the truth, which everything else supports, logically, illustratively, which means it may not be the most important thing in the text.” To illustrate, he references Romans 1:15-16, where Paul expresses his eagerness to preach the gospel in Rome, stating, “For I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome, for it is the power of God for salvation.” Pastor John Piper points out that while Paul’s eagerness to preach in Rome is the main point of these verses, the more significant truth—”the gospel is the power of God unto salvation”—might be considered more important theologically and for the audience.
This perspective offers significant freedom and responsibility to the preacher. It suggests that while sermons must be grounded in the text, their focus can be tailored to address the specific needs and spiritual condition of the congregation. Pastor John Piper’s approach encourages preachers to discern not only what the text is saying but also what God is saying to His people through that text in their current context.
Mark Dever, in response, generally agrees but brings in the context of expositional preaching through books of the Bible. Dever notes that in sequential preaching, he often aims for the main point of the text to be the main point of the sermon, trusting that following the author’s argument week by week will effectively communicate God’s intended message. However, Pastor John Piper counters by suggesting that even within a short passage, there might be multiple sermon points, and a preacher might choose to focus on one clause or aspect at a time, depending on what is most relevant and impactful for the listeners. This exchange highlights that while both Pastor John Piper and Mark Dever value biblical exposition, their approaches to selecting and emphasizing the main idea in a sermon can differ based on context and pastoral discernment.
Scripture Length and Doctrinal Depth in Preaching
The conversation then shifts to the length of scripture passages used in preaching. Jonathan Leeman raises the question of reservations about preaching larger chunks of scripture, noting that Pastor John Piper often preached from shorter passages. Pastor John Piper acknowledges that he found shorter texts “way easier” to manage. He even shares an experience of preaching a sermon on each of the minor prophets, describing it as “the hardest thing,” emphasizing the extensive preparation required to grasp the essence of larger biblical books like Zechariah, with its twelve chapters. This admission underscores the practical challenges of consistently preaching from extensive Old Testament texts and the time commitment involved.
However, this preference for shorter texts leads to a critical concern raised by Jonathan Leeman: whether focusing on smaller scripture portions might lead to “less preaching the text and more preaching your theology.” In other words, does it increase the risk of imposing one’s theological framework onto the scripture rather than allowing the text to speak for itself? Pastor John Piper acknowledges this concern, replying, “Yeah, that’s a concern.” But he immediately counters with an even greater concern: “that people are in desperate need for theology.”
Pastor John Piper articulates a strong conviction that there is “not enough doctrinal preaching.” He differentiates between expository preaching that provides “interesting observations about that text” and doctrinal preaching that “draws out of texts doctrines so that people get a framework of a worldview about God and sin and life.” He argues that neglecting doctrinal preaching can lead to “a weak church in the long run,” even if biblical texts are frequently referenced. For Pastor John Piper, the goal is not just to explain the Bible but to use it to build a robust theological framework within the minds and hearts of the congregation.
This perspective emphasizes the crucial role of the preacher as a theologian for the people. Pastor John Piper is advocating for sermons that not only unpack the meaning of scripture but also systematically construct a biblical worldview. He is concerned that some expository preaching, while faithful to the text, may lack the doctrinal synthesis necessary to equip believers with a comprehensive understanding of Christian faith. Therefore, for Pastor John Piper, the size of the text is secondary to whether the sermon effectively communicates relevant truth and contributes to the doctrinal construction in the lives of the listeners. His emphasis is firmly on ensuring that preaching is not just textually accurate but also theologically formative.
Navigating the “Gospel-Centered” Approach in Sermons
A significant point of discussion arises around the term “gospel-centered” preaching, a phrase that has gained considerable popularity in contemporary evangelical circles. Pastor John Piper expresses a nuanced concern about the overuse of this term, noting, “I probably have a bigger concern about the term gospel-centered. Gospel this, gospel that, making the word gospel an adjective almost in front of everything.” He worries that this trend “has had a truncating effect on theology and on preaching.”
Pastor John Piper’s concern is not about diminishing the importance of the gospel, but rather about the potential for limiting the scope of biblical truth by overemphasizing one particular aspect. He suggests replacing “gospel” with “biblical” in many contexts, advocating for “biblical preaching” as a broader and perhaps more accurate descriptor of faithful proclamation. For Pastor John Piper, assessing a sermon’s effectiveness should not solely depend on whether it explicitly mentions how to have sins forgiven but rather on “whether what they preach on here is really there and powerful and true and helpful.”
Referencing his 2022 T4G sermon, Pastor John Piper seems to subtly push back against the idea of always making a “beeline for the cross” in every sermon, a sentiment often attributed to Charles Spurgeon. While deeply valuing the cross, Pastor John Piper suggests a slightly different approach: “Start at the cross and make a beeline to practicality.” He elaborates, “I don’t think it’s a good idea to end every sermon on the cross. I think it creates something artificial.” For Pastor John Piper, forcing every sermon to culminate at the cross might feel contrived and potentially miss other crucial aspects of biblical teaching.
Instead, Pastor John Piper offers a framework for understanding how the entire Bible is Christ-centered and “gospel-dense” based on Romans 8:32: “He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?” He interprets “all things” in this verse to mean that every good thing promised to undeserving people throughout scripture is made possible because God “did not spare his own Son.” In Pastor John Piper’s view, the cross underpins every blessing and promise in both the Old and New Testaments.
To illustrate, he uses the proverb, “Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise” (Proverbs 6:6). Pastor John Piper explains that to preach a Christ-centered sermon on this text, one doesn’t need to find symbolic connections between an ant and the cross. Instead, the Christ-centeredness comes from understanding that the call to diligence and wisdom in this proverb, like all good directives, is made possible for sinners because of Christ’s sacrifice. As Pastor John Piper succinctly puts it in a 30-second sermon example, “God calls us to use our will to do good…and He enables us to do good as sinners by sending his son to die for us.” The emphasis then is on the practical application—”Do a lot of good”—grounded in the enabling grace of the gospel, rather than forcing a direct cross-reference in every sermon conclusion. Pastor John Piper cautions against preaching that is “so nervous to help guilty people feel not guilty as they walk out that it really gets old,” suggesting that sometimes, allowing people to feel the weight of their sin can be a necessary precursor to genuine repentance and transformation.
Old Testament vs. New Testament Preaching Balance
The discussion moves to the balance between preaching from the Old and New Testaments. Jonathan Leeman poses a question about pastors who predominantly preach from the New Testament, perhaps allocating “three quarters to five sixths of his year in the New Testament.” Pastor John Piper readily identifies himself in this description, humorously mentioning “Like John MacArthur. John Piper. John Piper.” When asked if he would do it the same way again, he responds, “Probably, yeah.” Mark Dever also concurs, stating, “That’s what I do.” He mentions preaching from Zephaniah briefly and then focusing on Hebrews for the rest of the year as an example.
Pastor John Piper clarifies his rationale, explaining, “my thinking on it is partly that the Old Testament is especially rich for elucidating the truth that you most immediately see concerning Christ rather than always having to preach the Old Testament and run over the New Testament, get something and bring it back.” In essence, Pastor John Piper finds the New Testament to be more directly and immediately connected to the central truths of Christianity concerning Christ and salvation. He isn’t diminishing the Old Testament’s value but rather emphasizing the New Testament’s directness in revealing Christ.
Mark Dever echoes this sentiment, noting that while preaching through Hebrews, he has incorporated significant Old Testament passages from Psalms, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. This demonstrates that even when focusing on the New Testament, there are ample opportunities to engage with and illuminate the Old Testament. Pastor John Piper explicitly states, “It isn’t because the Old Testament is less inspired and it isn’t because it’s not profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training, and righteousness. It’s because it’s less immediately connected to the center, less immediately.” The Old Testament is invaluable and inspired, but the New Testament offers a more direct pathway to understanding and preaching Christ.
Mark Dever further adds a practical perspective, mentioning that for Wednesday night inductive Bible studies, he focuses on New Testament epistles because “inductively it’s harder to… you’re asking people to traverse further” in the Old Testament. This suggests that the New Testament may be more accessible and straightforward for inductive study, particularly in a group setting. Overall, both Pastor John Piper and Mark Dever reveal a strategic approach to scripture selection, prioritizing the New Testament for its directness in revealing Christ and foundational Christian doctrines, while still acknowledging and utilizing the rich theological resources of the Old Testament.
Sermon Structure, Outlines, and Delivery Tips
Moving from content to delivery, the conversation addresses practical aspects of sermon presentation, starting with the question of whether a sermon should have an outline. Pastor John Piper responds, “It should have a helpful structure. I’m not sure what you mean by outline.” He clarifies that he doesn’t take a formal outline into the pulpit, nor does he necessarily have one explicitly in his head. Instead, Pastor John Piper relies on a manuscript, explaining, “I have a manuscript in front of me and I hope it has a structure that’s helpful for making the truth plain.” This suggests that for Pastor John Piper, structure is essential for clarity, but it is organically woven into the sermon manuscript rather than being a separate, rigid framework.
The discussion then touches on a lighter, yet often-observed aspect of Pastor John Piper’s preaching style: his hand gestures. Jonathan Leeman asks, “How self conscious are you of hand gestures?” Pastor John Piper humorously replies, “I’m not self conscious ever of hand gestures, ever, except when people ask me that question.” He seems genuinely unaware of his distinctive gestures while preaching, indicating they are a natural and unconscious part of his communication. Mark Dever adds to the humor, mentioning that “There are a lot of people out there who do John Piper hand gesture imitations. You know this.” Pastor John Piper acknowledges hearing about these imitations, showing a good-natured awareness of this public perception.
This brief exchange provides a valuable, albeit indirect, tip on preaching delivery: authenticity. Pastor John Piper’s lack of self-consciousness about his gestures suggests that effective delivery is less about contrived techniques and more about genuine, heartfelt communication. He and Mark Dever both affirm that they are “not at all” self-conscious about their gestures. Pastor John Piper reflects on his early preaching style, noting that “the early John Piper, say the first five years, it would not have looked like that.” He mentions older members of his church who preferred his earlier style, implying that preaching style evolves over time and experience. The key takeaway is to be oneself, allowing one’s personality and passion for the message to shape the delivery, rather than focusing excessively on external mannerisms.
Pastor John Piper’s Advice for Young Pastors and Preachers
When asked what advice he would give to his younger self regarding preaching, Pastor John Piper distills his wisdom into three core principles: “Pray a lot, read your Bible a lot, and love the people a lot.” These three exhortations are not just steps to improve preaching skills but are foundational pillars for a healthy and effective pastoral ministry.
Expanding on these points for the benefit of young preachers in general, Pastor John Piper reiterates these three essentials: pray, read the Bible, and love your people. Mark Dever interjects, highlighting that Pastor John Piper entered ministry with “powerful theological assumptions” already in place, which might not be the case for all young preachers. Acknowledging this, Pastor John Piper refines his second point, “read the Bible a lot,” clarifying that it should be expanded to “read a lot to get to understand the Bible. Know your Bible.” He emphasizes going “deep with the Bible so that you have that theological framework that’s really there and really beautiful, really compelling, really controls your thinking, controls your life. And people can feel it. They can see it.”
This elaboration underscores that biblical reading for preachers is not merely about devotional practice or accumulating knowledge, but about deeply understanding scripture to the point where it shapes their entire worldview and ministry. Pastor John Piper stresses the importance of having a “theological framework” that is not just intellectually sound but also deeply felt and visibly evident in their preaching and life.
Jonathan Leeman highlights the significance of the third point, “love your people a lot,” referencing Mark Dever’s preference for preaching to his own congregation over other audiences. Pastor John Piper wholeheartedly agrees, stating, “I totally agree.” Mark Dever emphasizes the unique relationship and accountability a pastor has with his own congregation, contrasting it with preaching at conferences or other events. Pastor John Piper shares that his call to pastoral ministry was driven by a desire to see theological truths, like those in Romans 9, “fleshed out in 8-year-olds and 80-year-olds.” He wanted to see the practical impact of these doctrines in the lives of his congregants.
This emphasis on loving the people connects preaching directly to pastoral care. It’s not just about delivering well-crafted sermons but about ministering to a specific community of individuals whom the pastor knows and loves. Pastor John Piper’s advice, therefore, is holistic, integrating spiritual disciplines (prayer and Bible study) with pastoral affections, all aimed at making preaching more effective and ministry more impactful. These three principles—prayer, biblical depth, and love for people—form a concise yet comprehensive guide for young pastors striving to grow in their preaching and pastoral ministry.
Preparation and the Use of Commentaries in Sermon Development
The conversation turns to the practicalities of sermon preparation, specifically how much time Pastor John Piper typically spends preparing a sermon. He states, “One day, as long as it takes. It might be eight, it might be 12 hours.” This reveals a focused and intensive approach to weekly sermon preparation, dedicating a significant block of time to the task. When asked if this has been consistent throughout his preaching career, Pastor John Piper acknowledges trying “some unrealistic things in the beginning,” such as spreading preparation throughout the week. However, he found that “work expands to fill the time you have to do it in,” leading him to “bite the bullet and start on Friday.” This pragmatic approach highlights the discipline and focused effort Pastor John Piper dedicates to sermon preparation each week.
Mark Dever inquires whether Pastor John Piper reads the sermon text during his devotional time. Pastor John Piper responds, “No,” explaining, “It didn’t occur to me. I have another plan for devotions, the discipleship reading plan that reads through the Bible in a year.” This indicates a separation between personal devotional reading and focused sermon preparation. Pastor John Piper’s devotional reading is structured for broader biblical engagement, while sermon preparation is a distinct, concentrated effort.
The discussion then addresses the use of commentaries in sermon preparation. Jonathan Leeman asks, “When in the sermon prep process do you consult commentaries?” Pastor John Piper answers definitively, “If I consult a commentary, I consult it after I’m stumped.” This reveals a principle of independent wrestling with the text first. He prefers to engage directly with the scripture, utilizing his knowledge of Greek and English, before turning to secondary sources. Pastor John Piper elaborates on his process: “So you’re wrestling with the text by yourself, Greek and English.” To which he affirms, “Most of the time.”
Pastor John Piper explains that he turns to commentaries only when he encounters genuine difficulties in understanding a text. He provides an example from 1 Timothy 2, concerning the word “eremos,” which is used to describe a peaceful and quiet life. He notes that this word is rare, “doesn’t occur anywhere else in the Bible. It doesn’t occur anywhere else in the first century.” In such cases of genuine lexical or interpretative challenges, he consults commentaries.
However, Pastor John Piper expresses a degree of disappointment with many commentaries, stating, “it’s amazing how many don’t pose the question. That’s one of the reasons I don’t bother with commentaries very much. They don’t get as far as I do often.” He finds that many commentaries often reiterate obvious points rather than grappling with the deeper, more complex questions of interpretation. Pastor John Piper prefers commentaries like those by Ellicott and Alford, because “those guys pose the questions I’m stumped by. They pose serious, detailed grammatical questions.” His preference is for commentaries that engage with rigorous textual analysis and address the nuanced linguistic and exegetical challenges that he encounters in his own study. Pastor John Piper’s approach to commentaries is thus selective and strategic, using them as tools to overcome specific hurdles in textual understanding rather than as primary sources in sermon preparation.
Growth and Feedback: Can Preachers Improve?
A hopeful and practical question is posed: “Can bad preachers get better?” Pastor John Piper offers an encouraging “Yes.” When asked how, he points to several areas of personal and stylistic improvement: “Becoming less self-conscious, less arrogant, less silly in their gestures.” These suggestions highlight that improvement in preaching is not solely about theological knowledge or exegetical skill, but also about personal qualities and presentation. Reducing self-consciousness allows for more authentic communication, humility counters arrogance which can be a barrier to connection with the congregation, and eliminating “silly gestures” suggests refining distracting mannerisms to enhance focus on the message.
Mark Dever probes deeper into the personal transformation aspect, asking Pastor John Piper, “How did you become less vain?” referencing Pastor John Piper’s earlier self-characterization as “very vain in seminary.” Pastor John Piper responds thoughtfully, “Well, I don’t know that I have, but I…” He acknowledges the ongoing nature of personal growth in humility. He suggests that a theological shift towards being “God-centered” is revolutionary in diminishing self-centeredness. “When you’re God-centered, it’s hard to be self-exalting and self-centered.” This suggests that a deep, theological grounding in God’s glory and sovereignty is foundational for personal humility and, consequently, for more effective and less self-serving preaching.
Another factor Pastor John Piper mentions is the realization of personal limitations: “to discover that you’re not good at a bunch of things you hoped you would be good at.” He shares his own experience of leaving academia because he recognized his limitations in reading speed and memory. This self-awareness, paradoxically, can be a pathway to improvement in other areas. Pastor John Piper advises young preachers to “find the thing that you’re more or less natively equipped to do and give everything to make that as good as you can make it.” He illustrates this with his own strengths: “I can read a paragraph and I can take it apart and I can put it back together and I see things a lot of people don’t see and I get excited about them and I can communicate what I see and how excited I am and that’s different. So that’s what I do.” The key is self-awareness, accepting limitations, and maximizing one’s unique strengths.
Jonathan Leeman then poses a more challenging question: “Can a preacher be so ineffective that he should stop trying to get better and find something else to do?” Pastor John Piper answers, “Yes. Yes, I think…” He acknowledges the difficult reality that not everyone is suited for pastoral preaching, even if they are preaching truth and not error. He points to the imperfect process of entering ministry: “We don’t have an infallible pathway into the pastorate. We don’t have criteria that are…. infallible for helping a man move from a first inclination at age 15 or 19…and then find himself in the ministry.” Pastor John Piper expresses his burden as a seminary preaching teacher: “one of my biggest burdens is how can I help some of these guys not become pastors?”
While acknowledging the difficulty and sensitivity of such situations, Pastor John Piper affirms the reality that some individuals may be better suited for other forms of ministry. He admits to being “too squeamish” to directly tell someone they should not be a pastor but notes observing a “self-selecting thing happening” where some individuals naturally gravitate towards other roles like counseling. Mark Dever recounts an anecdote of being told he wasn’t “a good enough preacher” for Capitol Hill Baptist Church early in his ministry, highlighting that even negative feedback can be proven wrong and should not necessarily deter someone from their calling if they are indeed called. However, Pastor John Piper’s overall point remains: preachers can improve, but self-awareness and honest assessment are crucial, and in some cases, redirection might be necessary for both the individual and the health of the church.
Learning to Give and Receive Feedback on Preaching
The conversation shifts to the crucial practice of giving and receiving feedback on preaching, a vital component of continuous improvement for any pastor. Jonathan Leeman initiates this topic by asking for tips on giving feedback, especially for those who, like Pastor John Piper admits to being “squeamish” about delivering criticism. Mark Dever, in contrast, states, “I’m just not worried about that…So if I give Vince some advice, you know, Vince is going to take it. He’s going to appreciate it. He’s not going to think I’m…” This highlights a difference in personality and approach to giving feedback. Mark Dever’s directness is rooted in a culture of mutual accountability and a shared goal of improvement within his ministry context.
Pastor John Piper humorously suggests that having Mark Dever’s personality would be helpful for giving feedback, implying that Dever’s directness is an asset in this area. Jonathan Leeman then mentions “service review,” a practice at 9Marks, as a mechanism for learning to give and receive “godly criticism and godly encouragement.” Mark Dever expands on this, emphasizing the importance of learning “to receive godly criticism and to receive godly encouragement,” highlighting that all four—giving and receiving both criticism and encouragement—are distinct and valuable abilities.
To make the discussion practical, Jonathan Leeman proposes a live feedback exercise, asking Pastor John Piper to offer “godly encouragement and godly criticism with Mark’s preaching.” Pastor John Piper, after some initial hesitation, obliges. For criticism, he points to Mark Dever’s rapid speech, noting, “he talks so fast that repeatedly he slurs his words…I can’t understand what he just said. You do it all the time.” This is a specific, actionable piece of constructive criticism about delivery.
However, Pastor John Piper immediately balances this with strong encouragement about the substance of Mark Dever’s preaching: “But content is where I’m going to go out of my way to hear Mark. I mean, I’m just going to cross town to sit under his preaching…If he can draw out of Hebrews 10:1-18 the things he saw last Sunday and tell me about the beauties of the sacrifice of Christ… I’m going to come. Even if I can’t understand some of it. Yeah, a tenth.” This high praise for Dever’s theological depth and ability to expound scripture effectively illustrates how to balance constructive criticism with genuine appreciation.
Mark Dever responds to Pastor John Piper’s feedback with humility and openness, recounting a recent sermon on Hebrews 10:1-18 and subsequent feedback he received from both a church member, Bill Behrens, and from Pastor John Piper himself. He shares how Behrens’ question prompted him to reflect on whether he had adequately addressed the encouragement for Christians who still sin within the text. He also describes Pastor John Piper’s insightful question about verse 14, “For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified,” and how it made him realize he had missed an opportunity to emphasize the positional and progressive aspects of sanctification. Dever states he plans to share these feedbacks with the church, demonstrating a commitment to transparency and continuous learning.
In turn, Jonathan Leeman prompts Mark Dever to offer feedback to Pastor John Piper. Mark Dever expresses some difficulty, as he is not regularly sitting under Pastor John Piper’s preaching, but offers general encouragement, praising Pastor John Piper’s strength in “looking at the text carefully,” referencing his insightful question about Hebrews 10:14. Pastor John Piper, in a moment of self-deprecating humor, prompts Dever to “Receive criticism,” highlighting his willingness to receive feedback as well.
Pastor John Piper then shares a practical example of receiving feedback from his wife, who regularly points out “little things that will bother people,” such as overuse of certain words like “absolutely” or “incredible.” He describes these as “word binges” and acknowledges the value of his wife’s feedback in refining his language and delivery. This personal anecdote underscores that feedback can come from various sources, even from those closest to us, and that being open to such input is crucial for ongoing improvement.
Finally, the conversation concludes with advice on how to handle oneself immediately after stepping down from the pulpit, dealing with both praise and criticism. Pastor John Piper advises that when praised, a preacher should simply “say thank you” and add something like, “That’s really encouraging,” to express gratitude and acknowledge the giver’s ministry in offering encouragement. When faced with criticism, Pastor John Piper suggests, if the criticism is valid, to acknowledge it and commit to improvement: “Thank you, I’ll really work on that.” If unsure, he recommends taking time to reflect: “Let me think about that. We can talk about it.” He quotes Jonathan Edwards’ wisdom: “there’s always a grain of truth in every criticism, look for it before you defend yourself.” Pastor John Piper concludes with an encouraging reminder: “even if the criticism is true, God does things with sermons, imperfect C- sermons that are life-changing. And you can just accept that and not think it was a wasted sermon. You don’t know. You’ll never know whether that was wasted. And you ought to assume it wasn’t. The word will never come back void.”
Mark Dever adds a final thought, shifting the focus from personal evaluation to trust in God’s work: “when I’m done with the sermon and I feel like…I just need to look at God and just know that he is going to pick this up and use it as he is at work in his word by spirit in his church. And I don’t need to, at once it’s worry about that, I can exalt in that and rejoice in that. And the less impressed of the sermon was even to myself, probably even the better it is anyway. So praise the Lord for how he’s going to be glorified.” This concluding advice emphasizes humility, trusting in God’s power through His word, and focusing on God’s glory rather than personal performance, offering a balanced and God-centered perspective on the entire process of preaching and receiving feedback.
